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Nov 9 10 8:30 PM

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G'Day Guys.
I have decided to get right into my 1915 Tourer. There are substantial oil leaks, many bolts without washers, many bolts unwired, lots of silicone gasket stuff, etc, so I don't really have confidence in the workmanship of the last person who worked on the engine. As I'm planning a long cross country, mainly dirt road trip I need to be sure of the state of the engine. So rip out the engine.
I like manuals. I follow receipes in cooking. Scientific background. If the receipe says stand on left foot and stir, that is exactly what I do.
Well, I followed the Bible but something was not right. I have removed everything from the engine as instructed but there is no way I believe that the engine will come out.
The engine support arms I don't believe will pass through the firewall.
So I went online to the US site and after much searching (it is not really that simple) I found many posts, but many applied to 20-27 T's. Finally I came up with the post from Alan Wolf in Nov 2007 that was applicable to a 1917 Model T.
He said that one should lift the front of the body about 1 inch so that the hogshead "ears" could be pulled forward and clear of the firewall.
This sounded good so I have removed the following:
4 bolts attaching the running board to the body on each side,
2 bolts and 2 spring-loaded bonnet attaching bolts and then the wooden strip on each side
2 bolts attaching the firewall bracket to the main frame on each side,
2 front bolts attaching the body to the mainframe on each side.

I have jacked the body up and have chocked it with a few wooden blocks.
I believe that the engine should now slip out BUT I have not done it yet.
Tomorrow morning I hope.
If you have any suggestions or hints I would be much obliged.
Thanks
Regards
Alan
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#1 [url]

Nov 10 10 8:43 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Yeah!!!!! The engine is out.
I have taken a couple of photos so will attempt to upload them.
Lifting the body was the trick. Maybe you guys knew that all along. Please excuse my ignorance.
It took more time taking the photos than actually extracting the engine.
Regards
Alan
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#2 [url]

Nov 10 10 9:34 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Excellent work Alan, I've only done 26/27 so couldn't offer advice re removal, but you're right in the wisdom of following the Ford book to it's word. It's never let me down so far, and keeping the car stock standard avoids potential problems.
Trusting previous 'restoration' work is a dicey thing; from what I've seen, most 'restored' cars up for sale are full of the problems you mention. As the saying goes, "Paint it black, shove it back". But once you've gone over it, it's peace of mind and is the best way to learn about your car.
Don't forget to check the thrust washers in the diff; they're a safety item and unless they have been replaced, chances are there's none there having dissolved into a grey mess.

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#3 [url]

Nov 10 10 9:50 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day John
Thanks for your comments.
I appreciate comments regarding the Thrust Washers in the diff. I haven't got my head around the rear end yet. If you or others can suggest other "must" things please let me know.
Thanks again
Regards
Alan

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#4 [url]

Nov 10 10 5:27 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Guys
I find I have to make up a special tool to remove the 4 bolts holding the transmission on.
What is the best way to clean the magneto???
Regards
Alan

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#5 [url]

Nov 11 10 10:21 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

I used a torque wrench with a short extension to get the four flywheel bolts off at a less than ideal angle, so yes an offset spanner would have been better.
The magneto field coils can open a can of worms and will need to be checked carefully if you're going to just put the coil ring back in without having it rebuilt.
Basically what can happen is the coils can come apart leaving several metres of copper ribbon wrapped around the transmission. See that the coils are all secure on the field ring and that the insulation is intact around each of the coils. I wouldn't attempt to clean it with anything stronger than kerosene. There is a member in the Sydney club that can rebuild the field coils if you wish to go down this path.
The flywheel magnets and brass screws are another can of worms; you can either leave all alone and live in hope, or you can pull all the magnets off and check them for cracks. They have to be replaced with like poles opposite each other (see the book) and you'll have to probably replace all the brass screws if there's not enough to re peen them. And note that some of the repro screws have the wrong thread. You're then going to have to check the magnet height for each magnet once reinstalled. A magnet that hits a coil pole, or for that matter a cracked magnet that comes off the flywheel at 2000rpm leaves a nasty mess.

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#6 [url]

Nov 11 10 11:53 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day John
Thanks again for the tips.
I welded up an 11/16 offset ring spanner and it worked fine.
A couple of the coils have wrap missing. Looks like the last person laid the engine on its side and ripped off the wrap.
Could you give me contact details of that guy in Sydney who rebuilds field coils.
Since I have the engine apart this far it probably would be prudent to pull of the magnets and check them all and replace brass screws. (I'll watch out for the threads)
I believe they can be remagnetised if required. I have checked out the US forum.
What method have you used?
Regards
Alan

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#7 [url]

Nov 11 10 2:49 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Hi Alan,
The person to speak to about rebuilding your magneto is John Everett who is in the NSW Model T & Model A clubs. Ph. 02 97734941. By the sounds of it, yours is in need of a rebuild. Once the insulation comes off, small metallic particles get embedded in the exposed windings and short them out; the result being the magneto never produces full output. Plus of course, is that not much is keeping the coils in place. I've seen John's rebuilt field coil rings and they are a top job that will last a lifetime. He can also recharge the magnets.
As for what happened to my own magneto, it had never worked properly and the in car charge didn't work so have always just run the coils off the battery with good results. When I was forced to take the engine out late last year due to a broken crankshaft, I gave it a lot of thought and ultimately decided that 75km/h is fast enough in a T and decided to replace the magneto with oil paddles to eliminate a lot of potential problems and give hugely improved service access to the flywheel area. I describe it further here http://cool386.tripod.com/coils/coils.html

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#8 [url]

Nov 11 10 5:08 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Hi Alan, something you may want to consider if you need to rebuild and replace magneto components, fitting the later ring gear fly wheel and magneto will give you the option of putting a starter motor on now or at a later date just by changing the hogs head when and if you need a starter with out having to do all this work again, I do have it in my 16 as one day I will be an old fart ,if not already, and may need to just push a button...Frank

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#9 [url]

Nov 11 10 7:27 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day John
G'Day Frank
Thanks for your comments.
I will call John Everett. Whilst I like to do most work myself, I believe there are many areas where we need experts and this I think is one.
Frank, Funny you should mention it but you have hit the nail on the head. I could be regarded as an old fart right now and have decided that I would like the option of hitting a start button.
The other day I stalled the T in my little street while doing a U-turn. Bit embarrasing. Had to ask the passenger to get out(I'm a LHD), hop out myself because the passenger was a sheila who wouldn't know what a crank handle is( don't have those thoughts) and restart the engine, all hop back in, give the wave to the 100 cars banked up waiting and then return home. I think I do need a start button.

I have been talking with Keith Eastwood and he has just informed me of the Swap Meet in Bendigo this weekend. So if weather is OK(forcast says that it will not be)I plan to fly my helicopter from Canberra to Bendigo with the hope that I might find a 1919 hogs Head, a starter and also a fly wheel.

I'm not a member yet of the NSW club. I have sent 2 emails, one to a guy recommended on this forum and another to the Windor meet web site but have not received any response. I will try some other way.
Thanks for your help, really appreciated,
Regards
Alan
Mobile: 0427 20 6664

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#10 [url]

Nov 14 10 4:21 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day John
G'Day Frank
G'Day Guys

John I called John Everett. Great bloke to talk to. He now only does Starter Motors and Generators.
I found a guy down in Bendigo who does magnetos and I dropped mine off to him yesterday.
Also found out the the mag ring needs a small indent when a starter is fixed.

I went to Bendigo yesterday with the hope of finding a 1919 hogshead, flywheel and starter. Sadly no luck. Lots of mud and only found one person with any T stuff. Bit disappointing.
If anyone can help me with these items I would appreciate it.

Frank re the ring gear. I was looking for another fly wheel >1918 but looking at mine, why can't I just turn down the flywheel with a lathe to install the ring gear?? I presume the ring gear is flush with the flywheel and is held in place with the brass magnet screws. What do you think?
If anyone else would like to comment please do.
Regards
Alan

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#11 [url]

Nov 14 10 6:02 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Hi Alan, I have a fly wheel but it is very sad, been out side for many years, you are welcome to it if you think it's worth the trouble to pick up, (gippsland victoria) I have been told that yes you can fit a ring gear by turning, can buy ring gear new, the only thing left is to find out if you can grind a starter notch in the magneto. I had bought some parts from a 22 T some years ago to get what I needed, there also is a hogs head but looks like one of the shaft holes has been reamed or drilled and no longer lines up with the other side hole, can be fixed but at what cost? maybe more than finding a good one, yours if you want it, sorry have no starters...Frank.

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#12 [url]

Nov 14 10 6:34 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Frank
My flywheel is in good shape so turning up would be a good idea. Thanks for that.
Keith Eastwood has a new ring gear but not sure at what cost.
Interested in that Hogs Head. I have a friend who is good at welding Al.
Also looking for an excuse to fly down to Vic. Game enough to come flying in a Hughes 500 helicopter?
My email address is alan@atrprojects.com.au. Could you please send me an email.
Thanks
Regards
Alan

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#13 [url]

Nov 15 10 9:34 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Alan, and anyone else thinking of buying a repro ring gear, beware that some have the 'wrong' thread for the magnet screws. The Ford thread is a #14 with 26 turns per inch. Somewhere along the way, a repro manufacturer took this to be a 1/4" 26 TPI thread and now there's a whole lot of ring gears with this thread. It is not a problem as such because the repro brass magnet screws are made in both sizes (and you should be replacing your magnet screws anyway if you've got this far). The point is just be wary if you're using an old ring gear with new screws or vice versa. And the same goes for those installing oil paddles...that's how I found out (the hard way) the whole story on this.

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#14 [url]

Nov 17 10 7:52 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day John, G'Day Frank and others viewing
As always, thanks for your very helpful ideas and tips. Different threads in the ring gear....Trap for unwary players like myself.
Frank , thanks for your kind offer.
Unfortunately I have a Left Hand Drive (LHD) 1915 tourer.
Therefore I need a LHD 1919-22 LDH Hogshead with starter hole.
If anybody has one or knows of one I would really appreciate hearing from you.
Please respond here or email me on alan@atrprojects.com.au or call 0427 20 6664.

My engine does not look as though it has done a lot of work but it has:
Old pistons
non-adjusting tappets
Old big end and main bearing caps
No oil dippers
chips on the timing gears
cracked reverse drum
Yet to check out cylinders and crank shaft.
exposed magneto coils
unbalanced flywheel

Nothing that can't be fixed.

Since I want an easy-to-start, reliable engine I have no option but to proceed.
Regards
Alan

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#15 [url]

Nov 22 10 8:14 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Guys
Well I will continue this exercise. I hope it is of interest. I do appreciate the replies I have received. John thanks. Really helpful.
Today I got stuck into the rear axle.
No problems getting it out.
Need new rear shackles, lots of wear.

Split the diff to find that the ring gear is very worn, places where the metal on the teeth have been pushed out, broken teeth and it appears that the pinion shaft has been hitting the ring gear housing.
This could be just due to the fact that the ring gear teeth are worn so much and are not holding the pinion back. What do you think?????

The pinion looks OK. If I'm replacing the ring gear is it mandatory that I replace the pinion as well????

It does have bronze thrust bearings and they look OK.

There is slack in the roller bearing/sleeves so I will replace these, both inner and outer. The drive shaft roller bearing look OK.
Question: The axle looks OK with not too much wear. Should I install neoprene oil seals instead of felt????

Question: Is there another inner seal??? and where does it go?????

I have the "bible" and a publication on Rear Axles from Henry's, what is the most important thing that I need to be aware of???????

Thanks for viewing this topic.

Please feel free to express your ideas and tips. I'm sure most of you have been through this rear axle overhaul and have lots to offer.
I sure need some help.
Many Thanks
Regards Alan

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#16 [url]

Nov 23 10 10:58 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

It all sounds like typical wear on a well used car.
Starting with the diff, it's possible the broken teeth came about due to failed babbit washers in the past. If the pinion is still good there's no need to replace it. The Model T diff is much less critical than that of a modern car being bevel driven.
The neoprene axle seals are very effective and highly recommended. Do not use the leather seals with spring fingers. As the seal wears, the fingers wear a groove into the axle and eventually it breaks. The only seals are the inner seal which goes in on the inner side of the outer bearing, and the felt grease seal that goes on the outside. I haven't had a lot to do with rear axles, but the key points are to make sure the backlash is right, you've got bronze thrust washers, and beware of repro roller bearings. They are not made of spring steel and break - only suitable for trailer queens that never get driven.
Your engine doesn't sound too bad. In fact it sounds like it hasn't had anything non standard done to it. Old cast iron pistons are fine, although yours would be heavier than the 26-27 design. Non adjustable tappets don't cause any problems. I like them because the setting stays put. At this point, check if you have the original two piece valves, because if you do there's a risk they will come apart and punch a hole in the head (ask me how I know). The repro replacement is one piece solid stainless steel and excellent quality. Of course you'll have to redo the valve timing. Oil dippers were not standard; they were an accessory copied from the Chevrolet motor of the era. My opinion is such that I only bought them to pad out an order and they were cheap, but never had any wear issues prior. If you're going to replace the timing gear, get an original steel one or use the repro bronze one. Aluminium and fibre repros fail.
Most original crankshafts are cracked and they do break eventually, so if you are doing a major rebuild you should have it checked.
The flywheels were balanced when made, but not rebalanced when the magnets were put on.
I ran my original stock engine with cracked crankshaft for seven years and did two interstate trips with it. All I did was take up all the bearings and replace the piston rings and valves as needed, but it was a low mileage car when I got it. I did get a rebore when the crankshaft broke last year, but only because it was convenient to do at the time, and I'd never have to get it done again.

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#17 [url]

Nov 25 10 6:49 AM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Guys
G'Day John
Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

The D/S bushing is very worn, so much so that was the reason the drive shaft was moving to the rear and hitting the ring gear housing. Fortunately not enough to require replacing.
I guess the main action is for the D/S to be pushed forward by the ring gear and the main roller bearing is pushed against the thrust bearing.
It is the D/S bushing behind the U-Joint that controls backward play of the Drive Shaft. Please correct me if I have it wrong.

I will install neoprene rear inner seals. My 1915 Tourer does not have enough room as the 25-27 axle tubes. Apparently the room available is variable on the pre 1925 axle tubes. So according to Glen Chaffin(US), I can shorten the outer bearing sleeve by 1/16". It would be good to use some sort of silicon to seal the neoprene seal between the sleeve and the housing. What is recommended????

My crankshaft is cracked. Anybody have a spare crankshaft lying around????? Please email or call if you can help.
My valves are original 2 piece so they will be replaced.
Regards
Alan
alan@atrprojects.com.au
0427 20 6664

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#18 [url]

Jan 24 11 8:17 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Guys
There are 2 happenings that I get and have got and still get tremendous joy. Forget marriage, childbirths, grandchildren, PhD etc, well, they are OK but the absolute BEST are:
flying solo first time in a helicopter
AND starting an engine that you have pulled to pieces and re-assembled. Priceless!!!!

As I mentioned earlier, everything was original and have been running for 95+years so most needed attention.
Work completed:
Rebore
New piston and rings
replaced the 2 part valves and seats that now can handle unleaded fuel (great)
adjustable tappets
Timing gear
Replaced cracked crankshaft
installed oil dippers
new poured metal main and bigend bearings
shimed main bearings
Installed 4th bearing
Replaced reverse drum
Gear bushes
New bands
Flywheel with starter ring gear
Re-mag the magnets
Reconditioned magneto coil disk
Balanced
Water Pump
On front end, rebushed tie rod ends, steeering rod and spindles, new shackles
Replaced spindle arms
New wheel bearings
On Rear end, replaced all bearings, ring gear, pinion, and all Drive shaft bearings and new shackles
New Rear wheel bearings
Installed Rocky Mountain brakes
Installed 12V battery under back floor
Turn LED indicators, brake lights, Tail lights and emergency lights.
Fun Projects battery charger( from magneto)
Solid state fuel pump and filters
Could NOT install the starter (see next post)

AND what a joy to turn the crank handle and START. WOW!!!. Absolutely Fantastic....
Sorry. This is probably all very boring to you.
but why not pat yourself on the back.
Regards
Alan
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#19 [url]

Jan 24 11 8:35 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

G'Day Guys
As I mentioned in the previous post I could not install the Starter Motor.
Firstly it is still in Texas.
Secondly, Bob Trevan kindly found a Hogshead for me but I forgot to ask what year it was, not that it made any difference to me, as long as it had a starter access port.
Well I cleaned it up, painted it and transferred all the pedals across, installed a brake micro switch, bought a new magneto terminal and it all looked good.
I did a trial installation but something did not look right.
It turns out that this Hogs Head was a 1926-27 model which accomodates the larger brake band and hence the brake actuating rod is about 10mm displaced to the rear.
Well to adapt to this later Transmission Cover I would need a new brake drum, clutch disks, drive gear etc etc and possibly a different sump.
Anybody want a new 1926-27 Hogshead, I have one.

I have since re-installed my original non-starter hogshead in order to get the engine going.

So, I still need a 1919-1925 LHD Hogshead with starter access port.
If you have one or know of one please give me a call.
Regards
Alan Aston
Mobile: 0427 20 6664

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#20 [url]

Jan 26 11 4:16 PM

Re: Removing 1915 engine

Hi Allan, Glad to see you are getting things sorted, you still need to tell us about the trip your planing, is it solo, group, on a time table, in land, back-up or full faith in your new rebuild, you did say earlier that mostly dirt roads, did you find an appropriate air filter?...Frank

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